Amtico floor failure - advice required

I recently (8 months ago) had a large amount of Amtico plank laid by an approved installer in my home. The floor covered 2 large rooms. Previous flooring laid in those rooms were Karndean and terracotta tiles.

My builder removed the terracotta tiles and adhesive, the Amtico fitter removed the Karndean.

The initial result was excellent. Some 2 months ago, a raised lump appeared across the room which originally had the Karndean flooring. (Karndean was down when we bought house some 6 years ago and never had any problems with it) The lump got worse and resulted in gapping of the plank.

I phoned installer who visited and indicated possible screed cracking and agreed to remove and resolve - then left to order extra plank.

Before the resolution could occur, I spotted a similar issue further down the room. Called installer who said they would order extra plank and rearranged visit. Before they could attend I found 2 more instances in the room which had originally had tiled floor.

Called installer again who sent the boss to inspect....he reviewed subfloor underneath in an adjacent carpeted room and advised it is asphalt...indicated he suspected cracks in asphalt were to blame and this was not their issue although they would still attempt to resolve it for us.

They have now attended & on lifting floor, there are indeed cracks in asphalt in the affected areas. The house is 12+ years old so I'm not sure why cracks should start appearing now. They have rescreeded and relayed new plank on 3 of the 4 areas affected. One area has had to been 'patched' by inlaying smaller bits of plank due to the gapping in asphalt meaning that a single plank is now not large enough to fill original space without leaving gaps. All looks reasonably OK for now (though I'm a bit disappointed with the inlaying of the smaller plank pieces but little choice other than live with gaps).

However, installer can't guarantee this won't happen again as they say they can't be responsible for the quality of underlying asphalt. I have this morning found at least 2 more problem areas. I can't understand why the asphalt should start suffering all these cracks when it was laid when the house was built over 12 years ago.

At this stage, I'm keen to point out that the installer has at all stages indicated they are keen to help and want us to be happy. However, at no stage prior to installation were any risks relating to asphalt mentioned to us. They now indicate that Karndean (which I was considering) might have been a better choice. They say there is nothing that can be done to resolve the asphalt issues and it's likely down to poor quality asphalt being used by the builders. Whilst this is possible, this does not avoid the fact that this risk was not pointed out to us at the outset. Also doesn't explain it only occuring now, 12 years after asphalt was laid.

Additionally, my neighbour has Amtico plank in the whole of her ground floor (same builder & therefore, no doubt same asphalt) which was laid some years ago and she has not experienced this issue.

Given we had no issues with the previous Karndean I wonder if it is possible that shrinkage of the self levelling latex screed they used (I understand this shrinks on drying) could have induced stress which has caused the asphalt to crack?

A floor which costs several thousands of pounds and covers the majority of the ground floor of my house has failed in 6 months. Further cracks are continuing to appear. Even if the installer keeps coming back to resolve, how long before this happens again? If I live with the lumps/subsequent gapping what will my floor look like in 3 or 4 years time.

The installer has so far been helpful and reasonable but their assertion is that the asphalt is not their responsibility. I can see their point of view to an extent, but why was this risk not mentioned before installation? Why did they not recommend Karndean if that would have avoided this? Why would cracks suddenly start appearing in asphalt which is 12 years old?

I'd appreciate any views on how I should proceed given I now have 2 more problem areas (plus 1 they didn't resolve yet). I want to work with the installer and don't want to be unreasonable but to me it seems (1) that more advice should have been given prior to instal and (2) that the screed may have caused the problem.

Help!!!!

 

You mention builder uplifting terracotta tiles, did you have a lot of work done, maybe extension , did you move out of the building and reinstalled new heating, was the heating off for a long period?
we sometimes have a few problems on larger developments when we lay vinyl in not the ideal conditions, or the builder has done major works, knocked down walls, cut into slabs and laid pipes then screeded,
the heating gets turned off and the building gets very cold, they might be warm by the time we lay but not on for weeks, we have found some of the existing minor cracks or new ones apear after about 3 to 4 months of the heating being on full blast and structural movement if any walls have been removed

could be a reason why the asphalt has moved over all this time?

 

Thanks for your comments...we had a small amount of work done in one of the rooms - patio doors & a window swapped over on opposite sides of a garden room. Not a major job and heating was never off for long period - only for half a day.

The cracks are all quite a way away from the site of the works (none so far in the area of the work) & indeed the first to show (& the worst) are in a different room altogether where the Karndean was so doesn't really explain it.

I've now found another lump so we're up to 7 now (it's like a bad dream!).

I don't know what smoothing compound was used other than they said it was latex screed....it just seems a bit of a coincidence that we had no issues before with the Karndean and there were no cracks in asphalt prior and all of a sudden there are 7.

Just so difficult to know what to do next. Have either of you had any experience of screed causing these issues or heard of such?

 

Hi and welcome,
Just to go through the process.
Tiles and adhesive removed down to the asphalt?
Karndean removed only or was the latex it was sitting on removed aswell?
As others has asked, can you ask the installer which latex was used and was a primer used?

 

If there is cracks in the asphalt then you will get more issues as its the dpm in itself, even if you put karndean down it would make no difference in what your experiencing now as its the same type of material, once the asphalt is broken then the moisture barrier has failed, from what I know of asphalt it has a typical lifespan of 25 years or that is what ive been told on a few different courses.
If the karndean was down and stayed down fine then between that coming up and the amtico going down the asphalt has been broken, did they hit any lumps with a hammer? did they simply peel up the old karndean and go over the old latex or did they uplift all of it and start from a bare floor.

 

Hi this wasn't a job done by Crowe flooring was it

 

Hi the cause of the asphalt cracking is due to the compressive strength of the screed which has effectively pulled apart a weak asphalt. If the thickness of the asphalt flooring is less than 25 mm you are in trouble . All smoothing compounds have a compressive strength to them some more than others . When it cures the amount of pressure it puts on a subfloor is quite a lot and if the asphalt is weak or thin it will pull it apart. You say that the flooring company have re screened the floor - this will not solve the problem as it will happen again.

 

This has happened to me on 2 jobs in the last 8 years, 1 of the jobs was part old and part new asphalt and it was only the new section that cracked,the other job had asphalt about 10 years old, it's very frustrating for me as a fitter and for the customers, however I know I cannot have done anything wrong when screeding or laying the amtico as it has only happened on 2 jobs and not on the many others in that time (probably 70+). it can only really be down to poor asphalt quality or lack of depth in my opinion, and from a Fitting/ estimate point of view, we have no way of telling what sort of quality the asphalt is or how thick it is when assessing the surface, you certainly can't drill into it to check thickness as this would breach the damp proof membrane. I do wonder if it is something more to do with the screeds being stronger these days though, as up until it happened on one of my jobs I had never heard of asphalt cracking back in thedays when I only ever used Arditex.

 

Folks

Thanks very much for your input...it has been most helpful. It just seems to be one of those situations where we're between the devil & the deep-blue sea. I've no wish to blame the fitters...they are definitely not 'cut the corner' merchants and have so far been helpful....but likewise, I'm left as a customer having paid £4.5k for a floor which is lumpy after only a few months and is only going to get worse! I can't afford to start again.

Obviously, I've some questions to ask the fitter about the type of screed used. In terms of the room which previously had Karndean, from memory, the Karndean came up easily...not sure if the old latex was removed or just new on top but there was no whacking of the floor with a hammer or anything as far as I can recall.

I suspect even when I have found out what screed was used I'll be left in something of an inconclusive situation....anyone care to venture a suggestion as to what steps to take next..?

 

can you not claim on your buildings insurance if the subfloor has failed? also could contact sid bourne to inspect at your cost i think ?

 

Only solution would be to rip it up inc asphalt and start again so like oddbod_jnr said claim on insurance.

 

It is dodgy going over asphalt with the screeds of today they have way more compressive strength than the old ammonia latex we all used years ago , that's why this is happening more now. I bet it was a water based screed they used because they have the most compressive strength . I would not fit an expensive LVT over an asphalt subfloor because there is a real chance it will fail.

 

Hi there , I wonder if you would mind telling me how your problem progressed and if it was resolved ?
I am having very similar problems with bubbling Karndean over a concrete floor that previously had a carpet over it with no damp issues whatsoever . Thank you

 

Thank you for replying . Carpet was down since we bought the house 12 years previously , when removed for the Karndean to be fitted the underlay and carpet were both dry - ( no foisty smell ) .
No moisture test carried out as far as I am aware , latex laid the day before the Karndean was fitted .
Most recent replacement of the bubbled planks took place last week , the fitter pointed out how hollow the concrete beneath sounded by bashing it with a hammer . Underside of planks were moist , however they had been open to the air as they had lifted at the sides .hope this helps .