Thought I might put this out there for your comments. Over the last few months I have lost a few jobs involving Anhydrite screed. I have priced to remove laitance, prime and screed, only to loose the work to someone who is prepared to take a chance on not preparing the sub floor in the correct way and under cutting me. Now I will admit, I adopt a policy in these situations of " my way, or no way" and last week I got to find out that one of the jobs I lost, the screed has blown and all the flooring has to be replaced. I just find it hard to understand why people want to chance it!! How many of you are coming across this situation?
I think there are still a lot of people who don`t know what there dealing with. If they do know, and they chose to take it on 'at risk', let them crack on and deal with the fall out.
It's called greed, some will not know naff all about gypsum screeds and some do get away with it but not a risk of ever take. Some will know exactly what they are dealing with but all they think about is being paid then when it does go tits up they try their hardest to push the blame elsewhere. I strive on reputation like many of us on here and if that means losing out on a job because the 'other guy' is cheaper then so be it, I'd rather let it go than risk having shit reputation. Hardest part is convincing the customer as to why the extent of work involved is required for their floor especially when the guy before or after you is 1k cheaper for example than you so I just explain what products I would be using and why and leave it with them. I wouldn't take short cuts just to win the job. I love it when I hear that it went 'pop', I make sure I get to say 'told you so' I'm parked on the shitter so will give you an example: I was called in to quote a new mosque extension that was going to be used as a large function room, I went in and did all my tests etc and eventually put my quote through. I gets a call from the guy in the committee that owned the building and he asked me a load of questions regarding the procedure I was taking and I explained being a gypsum floor I'd need to do it this way but all he kept saying was we don't have time, we have bookings and another floorlayer told them that it didn't need screeding at all, just sanding down and the distinctive lvt fitting straight on top .... I told him my quote is what it is and the balls in his court. Never heard anything back so thought he'd obviously gone with someone else. This was a 650m2 job, whole lot was gypsum that had been down for 5weeks. Jumping forward a few months I had a call from the same guy in the committee and asked if I could meet him at the place as he'd like me to price up the upstairs (all timber) so I said sure but I'm not wasting my time like last time with all my help and advise so told him I want paying cash for my time and told him I'll give him an hr of my time but will cost him £50 cash - he agreed straight away... ....off I go and when I got there he rang me to tell me he'll be held up but on his way so I had a look around and was surprised by the state of the place. Black tape on random parts of the lvt, one section had been ripped out and some div had poured screed in and brought the level to high so there was 2 polish guys there smashing the hell out of the floor with bolsters etc. I had that smug look on my face. Anyways the guy shown up and the look on his face said it all. He shook my hand and said 'look around you, we need to fix this and we want you to do the job', he admitted straight away that they had made a big mistake listening to the other guy and that they couldn't get him back because he told them it's not his fault but the builders fault for not telling him it was a gypsum floor ... So I went through the whole 'told you so' and I'm not getting involved at all but will price the upstairs and get back to him in a few days - this guy was on case texting asking to reconsider so after a couple days I put my quote in for upstairs which he accepted straight the way with no questions whatsoever but made it clear I will not be touching the ground floor. Half way through the upstairs (400m2) there must have been a handful of different fitters turning up giving quotes and conflicting advise except for one guy had his own firm who knew his shit and went to town on them. He ended up getting the job and had a uzin rep with him going through the products/materials to be used etc and cracked on with it a few days before I finished the upstairs. Committee had to shut the whole place down. As I was clearing all my kit out this guy calls me to look at the lower level where the first fitter had fitted just because he was shocked, non existent notch so planks that were not as loose as others just flipped up soon as you touched it with your scraper. There was no screed, just primer on top of the gypsum and what looked like silicon sticking random edges of the plank it was just awful. He used single channel nosings for the 3 Mat wells and from one end of the 22 meter length room you could see it curved pretty bad, just a complete shambles. Took 3 weeks between 5 of them to put the whole lot right. Picking up my cash from the committee member he'd told me everything. My quote was 3.7k more than the original (bodger) fitter, floor already started lifting before he'd even finished the job but said it's common and just dropped weights all over the place once he'd chucked some silicon under them. They had 24 packs of the flooring go walkies one weekend but cameras were not up and running at the time so couldn't prove it was him...I could go on longer lol The fitter who came in and sorted it out was near 6k more than my original quote but bare in mind it included the ballache of ripping it all out to start fresh so in the end after a tally up they were near 46k out of pocket paying for the new fitter to come in combined with wedding/party cancellations and buying in new Lvt all because they thought the cheapest quote was best - lesson learnt for them if say. Turns out I've met the original fitter many times down my suppliers so eventually I'll get his side of the whole saga Committee said they tried to persue this guy but he wouldn't admit fault and threatened to burn the place down to the ground if they tried to wreck his reputation lol
Too much information! I thought the 'shitter' at start of post was your spiel chucker correcting something badly... Overall a story that needs re-telling lots.
I think you have touched on two familiar points there. One some fitters just don't know what they are dealing with, and secondly, convincing the customer this work needs to be undertaken. The phrase comes to mind " what's wrong with my floor, I thought you could fit straight on top of it". But I will always hold my ground. I had a customer recently call me in to price for Karndean Art Select Herringbone, on arrival I told him he had an Anhydrite floor and what work was required to prepare the floor for LVT. He started laying into me, telling me that he had fitted Karndean before, if he was younger he wouldn't even need me, and he had never heard of preparing a floor in this way. Couldn't understand why you couldn't seal it and then lay on it!! I politely told him, there is only one way to do this, and if you don't believe me, go on the internet and do some research. 2 days later he is on the phone telling me I was right!! And could I come back to look at the job again. My reply was, sorry you have missed the only fitting slot that I had in the timescale you required, it sometimes feels good to say NO.
I have carpet shops, and If the floor is calcium sulphate (anhydrite) we wont even price for the job. Just not interested. Every enquiry we get for LVT for new or recent builds with solid floors, I ask for an email confirmation of the composition of the floor before we can provide a quote.
Calsium sulphate isn’t a problem to deal with Apart from grinding off the top it’s the same process as a normal concrete slab just make sure it’s dry and don’t use any cement based products on it
Oh yeah, no problem at all...apart from you have to have a £3000 set up to grind it, then leave it ages to dry, CB test it. Cant use cement based levelling compounds over it which 95% of the market caters for. It’s a ball ache. Can’t see it being around for much longer. The builders I know are starting to dislike it as they get so many issues and they are the ones that put down the subfloors. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If I can get in early enough I try to talk the customers into using a hemihydrate screed instead which doesn’t need grinding. Also some of the rapid set dry mix screeds are decent Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Most floor layers have a buffer anyway You can get a iTools plate and segments for around 400 quid You can easily make that back for grinding charges It’s mainly used with UFH so easy to dry but dries quickly anyway once the top is taken off and most wholesalers stock 1100 or 110 and now L4 You’ve got the fear like a lot of guys have It’s not hard to identify when once you’ve seen a few and know how to identify it and it’s not new it’s been around for a long time but more widely used now because of its benefits and cost It’s not going away
Buffers aren’t really grinders. You’ve left off the most important part which is a decent dust extractor or your filling your customers house with fine dust. Not always used with ufh which is a ball ache. We deal with them a lot and not had any problems with them. As you say, if you know what your looking at and you know how to deal with them you won’t have a problem, but is it straight forward? No way. I don’t know anyone that likes dealing with them. Only reason it’s used so much is because it’s cheap. As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Well the customer thinks it’s cheap until the floor layer turns up and charges them to grind the floor. From our experience A few screeders are actually coming back and grinding the top which is nice. Saves me messing about with it Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Going back to the original post. There is no other option than to do it the right way. I agree the cost of doing it right can lose you the job. I think the companies installing these screed should do more to keep the cost down. I think they should grind the screed and test it so they can give a written guarantee that it is dry. It’s there product, why should we have to guarantee it? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think a lot of big builders use it because its good for there Breeam rating, and because its lightweight. I don`t think its going away, any time soon. A firm I was working for a few years ago, had a contract with a new home builder, who only used calcium sulphate screeds, and standard spec was Karndean right through private flats. They never ground off any surface latience, 1x coat of P121, green bag over the top. Surprisingly, they had very few failures. Maybe 1 in 100, and some of these sites run for 8-10 years, there massive, with literally thousands of units. I`m not suggesting that`s the right way of doing things, and personally, I would not take a job on without completing the correct prep, but it worked for them. The cost of replacing a one off failure, far outweighed the cost of grinding everything. As I said earlier, if they want to take the risk let them crack on.
I was speaking to a Rep a couple of weeks ago from a well known LVT company. They are getting approx 2 enquires everyday about failures on Anhydrite screed. They fail because of lack of proper floor preparation.
Large new homes builders....it doesn’t get any worse. They really don’t give a fuck. They would put your roof on upside down if it was cheaper and they could get away with it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://buildingdefectanalysis.co.uk...-problem-with-calcium-sulphate-floor-screeds/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
