Karndean glue down fitting issues - solution?

Discussion in 'Vinyl / Impervious floor coverings' started by drpepe, Aug 6, 2022.

  1. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    Hi everyone - i posted some of this on a different forum and was pointed in your expert direction. I hope you can advise on this! :)

    Karndean glue-down Van Gogh fitted by our builders last week in new extension and through into existing concrete kitchen floor.
    Floor construction (apart from the slab, all work done by the builder):
    *concrete slab (pre-existing from the previous conservatory on the same footprint)
    *small depth of 'fibre screed' to level
    *insulation (only 20mm - the original plan was 70mm based on a trial hole, but the slab was apparently higher by 40mm at the other side of the room. The 20mm insulation was OK'd by local BC:'fit what you can under there')
    *chipboard floor (18mm)
    *latex (then sanded)
    *karndean

    After installation, every single row of chipboard was visible (photo below) - I put a 2m level in the middle and I could get 1cm per metre at the worst points.
    After I complained, the builders lifted tiles across the floor and mechanically fixed the chipboard down into the slab ie. screwing the edges of each board down a few mm.
    This has helped - now, many of the joints are barely perceptible under foot/hand except when the sunlight comes in either direction (windows are East/West). However there are still a number of joints that are very obvious to the eye/hand/straight edge. Also - robustness - how long til the screws go pop?
    upload_2022-8-6_10-21-25.png

    Question: Would you pay for the above?

    Options to remedy:
    1. Retrofitting 6mm ply on top of chipboard to meet mfctr specifications- but this would not allow us to fit the karndean under the sliding door (see pic, there is no clearance) Or is there some clever detailing that could be done next to the door?
    2. Rip it all up down to the slab, replace using say 12mm insulation to gain room for ply?
    3. Accept the floor as is, ask for discount with threat of paying nothing for the flooring if they don't play ball?
    4. Different floor construction?
    5. Click fit LVT or forget LVT entirely?

    I am sure the builder won't entertain 1 & 2 (and would I want them to do it anyway?), but I could ask always a local fitter to quote to replace to mfctr guidelines (and deduct from builders bill)?
     
  2. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    Just to clarify , the builder tells me there is a DPM under the chipboard
     
  3. Rugmunching

    Rugmunching Well-Known Member

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    To put it bluntly....thats a bodge job.
    No way should builders be fitting specialist flooring.
    That needs all ripping out and starting fresh.

    So he's put chipboard on freah concrete?? Is that correct?
     
  4. Rugmunching

    Rugmunching Well-Known Member

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    You will struggle to get the correct remedy from your builders now so I'd be telling them there's no chance you paying them for what they've left you with and use the money to pay a 'professional' floorlayer to come in and fit it how it should be fitted. Be prepared to pay more than what the builder was charging you for the flooring prep & fitting!
     
  5. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    thanks for the reply.

    Do you mean concrete slab? The slab is decades old.

    If you mean the screed I don't know what it was, but remember it described as 'fibre screed'. This went on the half of the slab which needed raising a couple of cm - see pic below (this pic is the same day screed was put down, the brown half on the far side). The insulation was on top within 6d, with (i'm told) dpm on that and then chipboard.

    upload_2022-8-6_13-48-11.png
     
  6. dazlight

    dazlight Super Moderator

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    So the old slab, what year was that done and does it have a visqueen Dpm sheet under it ?
     
  7. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    About 2002. Yes , the 2002 plans say “100mm concrete on visqueen and sand blinded hardcore.” The dim could be seen at the edges of the slab in the trial hole.

    it was absolutely bone dry when the conservatory ceramic floor tiles and screed were lifted in preparation for the new floor.
     
  8. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    *the DPM could be seen at the edges of the slab.
     
  9. dazlight

    dazlight Super Moderator

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    Great. so the new screed. How long has that been down
     
  10. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    As per my post above with pic - half the floor was screeded, quite a dry mix, about 20mm. It was down 6 days before the insulation and chip board went on.
     
  11. dazlight

    dazlight Super Moderator

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    So that screed won’t be dry enough to cover up. They should of let it air out a few weeks then used a moisture suppressant over it. All the moisture from that screed could of worked into the chipboard
     
  12. merit

    merit Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that’s a fresh screed. Won’t be dry. Plus the chipboard may not be tolerant of moisture that’s in the levelling compound. A heavy primer can help against that which I’m guessing the builders didn’t use. Also levelling compounds don’t work very well over floated chipboard. It should be fixed or it will pull on the chipboard as it sets
     
  13. merit

    merit Well-Known Member

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    Should of waited for the screed to cure. Dpm it and then build up with levelling compound
     
  14. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    Thanks chaps. Bit of a bodge then.

    What's the fix? Take it back to the slab then.... allow screed to dry and then how to proceed?
     
  15. merit

    merit Well-Known Member

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    Also I see a lot of builder leave chipboard flooring outside for long periods of time
     
  16. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    Aside from the probability that the scree was too wet, should chipboard floating floors always have ply on top? This seems to be specified on the Karndean website for floated chipboard floors.
     
  17. Rugmunching

    Rugmunching Well-Known Member

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    Yep just as I thought, didn't leave the screed long enough to dry!
    I'm sure I can see a tub of pva in one of them pics? o_O
     
  18. drpepe

    drpepe Member

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    Even with a properly dried screed, would the chipboard be sufficient to lay Karndean on? IS the ply layer optional?
     
  19. Rugmunching

    Rugmunching Well-Known Member

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    No, needs to be floor graded plyboard
     
  20. Rugmunching

    Rugmunching Well-Known Member

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    Saying that, I do know of fitters going direct on chipboard that's had a feather
     

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