Way back around 1989, I was on a fitting seminar hosted by Duralay and Ken Robb who used to be their marketing manager. The purpose of the seminar was to introduce a new concept which was Durafit. A demonstration was presented which included adhering Duralay to the floor with a grid system of double sided tape, then sticking the carpet to the underlay. This was to be the answer for eliminating localised stretching in large installations such as department stores. I became the 8th person in the country to be awarded a Durafit certificate. This led to tackifiers being developed as a quicker and more efficient manner of adhering underlay, and other copies of this innovation soon followed. Then came System Ten, where one could use this thicker version of crumb rubber but without having to stick the underlay to the floor, allowing for a quicker fit. I have been out of the contract side of the trade for many years now and doing domestic work only. As I am going into retail now, my question is: Is system Ten still considered to be an efficient and quicker alternative to a double stick, or have problems been exposed over the years with this method since I was involved in contract carpet installations?
system 10 has in my 22yrs experience always been tacki the durafit (whichever grade) underlay down then glue the cpt down on top
We used System `10 as a loose lay system. No taki, but glued carpet to it. Had no problems with it. Used to be mostly sisal etc Not used it for years now though.
From what I was taught (right or wrong) system ten was as Neilydun says, loose-laid to the floor and stuck on top, the theory being that the weight of it was enough to counteract any problems there may be from heavy traffic. I've also seen the same theory applied to Duralay with no problems whatsoever.
This was my introduction to and understanding of it when it was introduced. This is I believe why it was named 'System Ten' because it was a new and innovative method of installation. I find double stick to be a bit of a pain. I once used System Ten as a loose lay on some seagrass, and it and the underlay shrunk 30mm overnight, so natural flooring should always be double stick on underlay, but I would like to begin using the loose lay method again on contract work to tufted carpets. Wondered if anyone out there still uses it in this manner.
A company I sub-contract to use the dura fit method all the time. A good few years ago we did a bingo hall on system ten and loosed laid as advised within in half a year 80% of the seams were splitting. After visting half a dozen times to repair, we had the rep out. He said that system ten can be loose laid on areas up to 30m2 anything more should be taki all over. Replaced it soon after and had no problems since.
Out of interest, were the seams bedded into the adhesive, or heat seamed first and then adhered to the underlay?
Samson, you obviously know Sid Bourne then (my dad) if you was involved with durafit back when it was used as a grid system etc. As for system 10, i have had two jobs fail. One expanded and one shrunk. The one that expanded was due to sunlight hitting it and warming the underlay. The underlay expanded. The one that shrunk was a natural. Blind gripper was used but the seagrass shrunk and ripped the edges of seagrass apart (the bit that was bonded to blind gripper). The underlay shrunk with the seagrass. Maybe down to heat but i think more moisture change and simply not being able to hold seagrass.
System 10 is loose lay mate. Underlay is loose lay with out taki and then floorcovering bonded direct. Yes it was acclimatised if thats what you mean. Underlay was in place and cut in for a week or so on the job that expanded (was a massive border job that took me a few weeks) . On the one that shrunk it would of been 24 hrs minimum as a natural.
100 lines for me.... must read the post correctly must read the post correctly must read the post correctly.... leave the drink alone leave the drink alone leave the drink alone.....LOl
I've always taki'd the underlay ! I would'nt take the risk with naturals that stuff can shrink like hell
Both times the carpet selvedges cut, laid in the glue with seam sealer. Have a look at interflor.com, system ten, tech spec.
The name is familiar, but it was an awful long time ago. Was he the fitter who used to do all of the initial Durafit contract work? At the seminar we also had a demonstration of how to lay seagrass, coir and sisal from a couple of guys from London. These products had just recently been introduced to the country, and for a while I became the only guy in the North East who could fit them. I made a small fortune for a few years as a result. The seminar was hosted for those involved with Flooring Installation U.K. Happy Days!
In view of the comments, I think I'll avoid System Ten. Not worth the risk especially as I will be supplying the carpets. Duralay's Durafit 6mm underlay is quite expensive. Can anyone suggest some much cheaper but decent alternatives? I used recently the recommended underlay by Crucial Trading, but it was cheap and nasty green fibre based felt which I considered to be rubbish and a rip off. And is f40 still the best tackifier for grab, and value for money?
We've had the same problem with cost of dura lay. Also health & safety issues!!! Over the last couple of years we have moved towards pu foam underlays. It's been trail and error with some. But recently we have been using carpenters firm step. You've got to put It wrong side up!!! ( writing face down ). Also using proper taki trowels or a worn out vinyl one. I KNOW it's not correct practice but it seems better to drop underlay in semi wet. Going to be harder when it's time to replace but saying that only been on half a dozen jobs in the last 15 years when it's come up how it should. That's what turbo strippers are for. We also use f40 all the time. But that's just Personal preference.
I used to have a contract with Contessa, and replaced carpet in probably 50+ stores. Always used System 10, as it was quick. Never had a problem with any of them. Max size was prob 100 Sq. M Also used it for years on domestic, fitting sisal, seagrass etc straight out of the van, and on the floor. Over a period of about 4-5 years, I only ever saw one shrink, and it was fairly dramatic. It left a nice border of gripper, about an inch around the perimeter. Now I only use Cloud 9 Contract for stick down. Even that has had its problems. Ive found sometimes there are small areas that the foam in the centre has missed. The pu top, and backing is there, just nothing in the middle. Had a few like it !
